Many Glacier campsite

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BillyBabb
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Many Glacier campsite

Post by BillyBabb »

Just looked at my phone when I heard a “ding” for my email.
It said your refund has been successfully accepted.
I was confused. I didn’t cancel. Then, I saw next email saying they have closed many from
June 12th till sept 21st! UGHHHHHH!!!!!
Why the hell are they canceling campground but still looking at opening
Swiftcurrent cabins and many lodge. Makes no sense to me.

risingwolf
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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by risingwolf »

Exactly. Poor planning for sure. Powers that be are opening up the bare minimum. Makes no sense, Glacier is not Carnegie Hall. The chicken little's are definitely in control.


The following is current as of June 6 2020
Camping in Glacier National Park
Due to current and anticipated staffing and operational limitations related to the COVID-19 outbreak, combined with identified safety and health risks, the opening of frontcountry campgrounds will be delayed.

While opening dates have not been established for park campgrounds, reservations have been cancelled at Fish Creek Campground and group sites at Apgar Campground through June 26, 2020.
Reservations for the St. Mary Campground have been cancelled through June 30.
Reservations for the Many Glacier Campground have been cancelled for the 2020 summer and the campground is closed for the season.
Refunds will be issued through recreation.gov and no further action is required by reservation holders at this time. The park is evaluating possible frontcountry campground opening dates and operations based on staffing levels, current conditions, and the latest health guidance. Please continue to check the park website for updated information.

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by PeteE »

This is from the latest guidance on the GNP page.
Guided Hiking Trips

Glacier Guides is planning on providing guided hiking and camping as trail systems and backcountry campgrounds access allows. Proposed to start day hikes on June 12 and overnight trips on June 20.
What is Happening with Trails and Backcountry Camping?

Glacier National Park has modified operations in accordance with the latest guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and state and local public health authorities.

When Glacier National Park reopens and can adequately provide backcountry experiences, the park will issue first-come, first-served, walk-in backcountry camping permits as conditions allow.
The "Nanny State" is allowing Glacier Guides to begin backcountry hiking on June 20th.
Apparently, the rest of us will have to wait as no date for us ordinary folks to begin overnight camping is mentioned further down on the page.
Is anyone else annoyed that Glacier Guides get this "privilege?"
Why is that?

pete :wink:
"When you're born in this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show.
And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

George Carlin

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by risingwolf »

Yes! GG has always been first in line. Something stinks.

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by Selkie »

BillyBabb wrote: Why the hell are they canceling campground but still looking at opening
Swiftcurrent cabins and many lodge. Makes no sense to me.
Some possibilities:
a. They can control the number of people in cabins and the lodge to maintain some form of distancing but cannot do so in the CG.
b. Campers place high demand on restrooms, showers, the store, and so forth, where distancing is more difficult to practice.
c. The CG is being used for staff, who won't be able to crowd into bunkrooms per usual.
d. The Park is short-staffed and unable to manage the flood of campers in and out each day.
e. To reduce the number of staff interactions with motorists waiting in line to secure a campsite.

As for Glacier Guides, in past years they have said they have to get in line and apply for permits, just like everybody else.
You could ask them.

Selkie
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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by Selkie »

Answer from Glacier Guides:
To clarify, nobody can book backpacking permits in advance this year, including us at Glacier Guides. Permits are still available though! We just have to obtain the permits at the office in the park the day of. ... We may have to be a little more flexible depending on what's available.

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by PeteE »

Selkie wrote:Answer from Glacier Guides:
To clarify, nobody can book backpacking permits in advance this year, including us at Glacier Guides. Permits are still available though! We just have to obtain the permits at the office in the park the day of. ... We may have to be a little more flexible depending on what's available.
That answer doesn't address the issue of whether or not EVERYONE can begin getting walk-up permits on June 20th or ONLY Glacier Guides.
The park guidance I quoted seems to imply that Glacier guides will be able to begin getting walk-up permits before the general public.
If so, why are they so privileged?

EDIT ADD:
IF they get to apply for walk-up BC permits before the general public, that is unfair imo.
I wish the park service would clarify that issue.
Everyone should be able to apply beginning on June 20th.

pete :wink:

PS
I understand why in "normal" times Glacier Guides is allowed to get advance reservation permits before the public.
I don't like it, but I do understand. 8)
Last edited by PeteE on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When you're born in this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show.
And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by PeteE »

Selkie wrote:
BillyBabb wrote: Why the hell are they canceling campground but still looking at opening
Swiftcurrent cabins and many lodge. Makes no sense to me.
Some possibilities:
a. They can control the number of people in cabins and the lodge to maintain some form of distancing but cannot do so in the CG.
b. Campers place high demand on restrooms, showers, the store, and so forth, where distancing is more difficult to practice.
c. The CG is being used for staff, who won't be able to crowd into bunkrooms per usual.
d. The Park is short-staffed and unable to manage the flood of campers in and out each day.
e. To reduce the number of staff interactions with motorists waiting in line to secure a campsite.

As for Glacier Guides, in past years they have said they have to get in line and apply for permits, just like everybody else.
You could ask them.
Regarding points a through e...
I know you'll find this hard to believe Selkie but I agree with your reasoning on those points. 8)
That said, as I've said before...
In my opinion the whole theory/notion of "social distancing" is flawed and unnecessary, defying common sense and physics.

I spoke to the GG issue in my previous post.

pete :wink:
"When you're born in this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show.
And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

George Carlin

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paul
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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by paul »

The Glacier Guides preference over regular backcountry users doesn't make sense even from a social distancing perspective. The Glacier Guide groups consist of people from separate parties and the guides themselves are also separate individuals. So take a bunch of people not related to each other and share camps and food with each other and they hike all day together too. How is that better than a solo hikers or a group of hikers from the same household? Wouldn't it be safer to only allow solo backpackers or backpackers from the same household? :roll:
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by zozeppelin »

What is the typical customer profile for GG? I assume it's affluent people traveling quite a distance ($300 per day per person?). I would question whether that profile would spend that type of money in advance without any certainty (on which route, let alone any route for given days). Will be interesting to see how the communication is crafted.

How did it work in previous years? They would blanket apply for advanced permits on March 15th like everyone else and then sell those off at a later date? Or take and make the reservations as they come in based on current availability, after the initial permits are issued, but still in advance? Seems like they would need a special mechanism or it would be really difficult to secure customers (unless I'm completely missing the business model which could very well be the case). I guess for $40 a permit with no cancellation fee compared to what they are charging, it's pretty easy math to shotgun applications without much financial risk.

But anyways, if it is walkin only, which is at best is starting the next night - meaning the people are already there, is at best instacart for permits and at worst scalping - assuming they have to wait in line like everyone else. If they have a special avenue, well that doesn't seem really fair, but would need to compare that to how it worked up until now.

I did have a quick look at their site and it looks like they have no specifics on the routes beyond duration (not sure if this is typical), with exception of the chalets. So maybe they can keep that up with the expectation that something, somewhere will mostly likely be available in the park, maybe just not ideal.

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by PeteE »

I don't have a problem with Glacier guides(GG) and the services they offer with one exception.
They shouldn't be able offer hiking and backpacking trips in the park unless the general public is also allowed.
If I see that the park service will allow the general public to hike and get permits beginning on the ON THE SAME DATES as Glacier Guides, then fine. I'd be ok with that.

pete :wink:

PS
The clients of GG are not necessarily elitists. The GG services are not cheap though.
Many of the backpacking clients simply want to be pampered a bit.
They feel they can enjoy their backpack more if they don't have to deal with some of the less pleasant chores of packing.
Some of the dayhiker clients probably like to have guides who are familiar with the park's flora and fauna, geology, etc.
And all that's fine.
I agree with the park giving them the exclusive right to provide their services inside GNP.
Otherwise, there would likely be problems if multiple guide services were allowed.
"When you're born in this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show.
And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

George Carlin

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Re: Many Glacier campsite

Post by Selkie »

The clients of Glacier Guides I have met (including me) wouldn't fit the description of people needing pampering, elitists, or any other unfounded assumptions.
1. They have little time, and prefer that logistics be handled without their involvement. They still carry all their own gear plus some group gear.
2. They have never been in backcountry inhabited by grizz.
3. They have never been to Glacier, have one shot at it.
4. They have no one else to hike with but prefer hiking with others.
5. They are relatively new to backpacking, have done the necessary preparations and maybe taken a class at REI, but want a more structured approach to a first-time backpack in the backcountry.
6. Lots of other reasons.
:roll:

My small group comprised a medical dr, a PhD statistician, an accountant, an investment banker, a student, unknown, and me. We nicely assorted among the first five categories I listed.

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