2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by zozeppelin »

teapot57 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:36 am After logging out and signing back in a couple of times, I was able to submit. So keep trying, Paul.

I wish the NPS would research an update to their back country permitting system. Parks Canada’s system is excellent. On opening day, traffic gets routed into waiting rooms so the system does not crash. You actually book your permit yourself online and have your permit right away if your campsites are available- no submitting an app and waiting weeks for a ranger review. And there is a cancellation option where you actually get a refund. Not a total refund, but enough to encourage you to cancel out online to free up spots for others to book.

A system like this would avoid groups submitting multiple permits for the same route, and there would be no waiting for ranger review. You can look at the website and see what campsites are open at any time, and book the permit yourself. If you ask for something outside of the rules or perimeters, the system lets you know.

Sorry, just rambling at this point. But there is a much better way.
Preaching to the choir.
I think a 'add to cart' approach is ideal, but I think a much easier IT update would be to automate the application processing in the backend.

While still not a great website interface, if we all had our permits approved/denied within a couple days, then we could resubmit as needed based on availability. I had been playing with that concept last year, but need to get back to it.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by teapot57 »

Preaching to the choir.
Yep, we complain about the process every year around here. I was just venting in the heat of the moment.

Pete, I like your route choices. I’m a fan of base camping and dayhiking.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by PeteE »

teapot57 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:24 am
Preaching to the choir.
Yep, we complain about the process every year around here. I was just venting in the heat of the moment.

Pete, I like your route choices. I’m a fan of base camping and dayhiking.
I hear you Tina :) I agree. I love to vent!! :arrow: :arrow:

The Park Service could make the reservation process FAR simpler if they wanted to. Again, it's simply bureaucratic inertia....IMO.
The software and the talent to implement almost certainly exist somewhere within the Dept. of Interior.
I'd bet my life that my MIT PhD, bonified and certified, computer expert, former hedge fund quant nephew could come up with a suitable program in a week. There's no excuse for such a shitty reservation system.
Anyway....

Yeah, I know base camping isn't what many visiting backpackers want to do and I understand why.
However, I believe the odds of getting a BC campsite at a less desirable camp ground are often much better than the popular CGs
And in recent years getting the primo camp grounds are exponentially more difficult due to competition from increased visitor numbers.
Brown Pass isn't as nice as BOU, HOL, or Lake Francis, but most of the time it will be an easier "'get".
Plus taking down a camp, hiking to a new CG, and setting it back up is kind of inconvenient....for my purposes.
My way isn't everyone's cup of tea, but we all gotta hike our own hike 8) Right?

Anyone else put in a reservation request and want to talk about it?
"Crickets" are boring. 8)

pete :wink:
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And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by mattB »

teapot57 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:36 am After logging out and signing back in a couple of times, I was able to submit. So keep trying, Paul.

I wish the NPS would research an update to their back country permitting system. Parks Canada’s system is excellent. On opening day, traffic gets routed into waiting rooms so the system does not crash. You actually book your permit yourself online and have your permit right away if your campsites are available- no submitting an app and waiting weeks for a ranger review. And there is a cancellation option where you actually get a refund. Not a total refund, but enough to encourage you to cancel out online to free up spots for others to book.

A system like this would avoid groups submitting multiple permits for the same route, and there would be no waiting for ranger review. You can look at the website and see what campsites are open at any time, and book the permit yourself. If you ask for something outside of the rules or perimeters, the system lets you know.

Sorry, just rambling at this point. But there is a much better way.
I wonder how well funded Parks Canada is compared to the US NPS?
Maybe if the US would fund our National Parks a little better we'd have a modern reservation system! And maybe even have decent food and concession options, and roads and buildings that are properly maintained instead of a 10 year backlog of maintenance issues...
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by McKee80 »

PeteE wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:24 pm
Anyone else put in a reservation request and want to talk about it?
"Crickets" are boring. 8)

pete :wink:
We got Sperry reservations for two nights, so I put in for a couple two night trips (reversible and substitutable). Because of the reservations, my day range isn’t a range, so I may be looking outside the park for an alpine lake to camp at for a couple nights.

1. MOR for 2 nights
2. NON-UPT
3. GUN for 2 nights
4. Logging Lake for 2 nights
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by cdsmith379 »

PeteE wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:24 pm
teapot57 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:24 am
Preaching to the choir.
Yep, we complain about the process every year around here. I was just venting in the heat of the moment.

Pete, I like your route choices. I’m a fan of base camping and dayhiking.
I hear you Tina :) I agree. I love to vent!! :arrow: :arrow:

The Park Service could make the reservation process FAR simpler if they wanted to. Again, it's simply bureaucratic inertia....IMO.
The software and the talent to implement almost certainly exist somewhere within the Dept. of Interior.
I'd bet my life that my MIT PhD, bonified and certified, computer expert, former hedge fund quant nephew could come up with a suitable program in a week. There's no excuse for such a shitty reservation system.
Anyway....

Yeah, I know base camping isn't what many visiting backpackers want to do and I understand why.
However, I believe the odds of getting a BC campsite at a less desirable camp ground are often much better than the popular CGs
And in recent years getting the primo camp grounds are exponentially more difficult due to competition from increased visitor numbers.
Brown Pass isn't as nice as BOU, HOL, or Lake Francis, but most of the time it will be an easier "'get".
Plus taking down a camp, hiking to a new CG, and setting it back up is kind of inconvenient....for my purposes.
My way isn't everyone's cup of tea, but we all gotta hike our own hike 8) Right?

Anyone else put in a reservation request and want to talk about it?
"Crickets" are boring. 8)

pete :wink:


I decided that since I only come out once a year and even some years I have had things canceled on me because of fires or weather I decided to go big with a 9 day traverse. This will be supported by Amtrak to start and the park shuttle to end, basing myself in West Glacier. I will be arriving by train as well. I love trains and to be able to combine train travel with such a park as Glacier is a real treat. No other park has a train service literally at its door.

The route I submitted is as follows:

Park Creek (PAR)
Lake Isabel (ISA)
Cobalt Lake (COB)
No Name Lake (NON)
Morning Star Lake (MOR)
Red Eagle Lake Head (REH)
Reynolds Creek (REY)
Lake Ellen Wilson (ELL)
Sperry (SPE)

I allowed for substitutions/shortening of the trip. Any thoughts on this itinerary? I hope I get it or some variation!
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by PeteE »

cdsmith379 wrote:I decided that since I only come out once a year and even some years I have had things canceled on me because of fires or weather I decided to go big with a 9 day traverse. This will be supported by Amtrak to start and the park shuttle to end, basing myself in West Glacier. I will be arriving by train as well. I love trains and to be able to combine train travel with such a park as Glacier is a real treat. No other park has a train service literally at its door.

The route I submitted is as follows:

Park Creek (PAR)
Lake Isabel (ISA)
Cobalt Lake (COB)
No Name Lake (NON)
Morning Star Lake (MOR)
Red Eagle Lake Head (REH)
Reynolds Creek (REY)
Lake Ellen Wilson (ELL)
Sperry (SPE)

I allowed for substitutions/shortening of the trip. Any thoughts on this itinerary? I hope I get it or some variation!
That's an awesome itinerary. I wish you luck and hope you can get it....or at least some variation.
How will you get to Park Creek to begin? There's going to be some major construction all summer on US2. So plan on delays getting to Park Creek
no matter how you plan on getting there. Or are you planning on riding the train back to Essex after picking up your permit in Apgar?
Anyway, good luck. Pray for good weather :)

pete :wink:
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And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by cdsmith379 »

PeteE wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:08 pm
cdsmith379 wrote:I decided that since I only come out once a year and even some years I have had things canceled on me because of fires or weather I decided to go big with a 9 day traverse. This will be supported by Amtrak to start and the park shuttle to end, basing myself in West Glacier. I will be arriving by train as well. I love trains and to be able to combine train travel with such a park as Glacier is a real treat. No other park has a train service literally at its door.

The route I submitted is as follows:

Park Creek (PAR)
Lake Isabel (ISA)
Cobalt Lake (COB)
No Name Lake (NON)
Morning Star Lake (MOR)
Red Eagle Lake Head (REH)
Reynolds Creek (REY)
Lake Ellen Wilson (ELL)
Sperry (SPE)

I allowed for substitutions/shortening of the trip. Any thoughts on this itinerary? I hope I get it or some variation!
That's an awesome itinerary. I wish you luck and hope you can get it....or at least some variation.
How will you get to Park Creek to begin? There's going to be some major construction all summer on US2. So plan on delays getting to Park Creek
no matter how you plan on getting there. Or are you planning on riding the train back to Essex after picking up your permit in Apgar?
Anyway, good luck. Pray for good weather :)

pete :wink:
Thanks Pete. I am coming out there early, I would have the previous day "off" to pick up my permit in Apgar, get fuel and possibly do a day hike. I would start fresh the next morning with the AM Empire Builder from West Glacier to Essex, short day to Park Creek. Good to know about construction on US-2.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by solohiker5555 »

Hey CDSmith - that's a great itinerary (Park to Sperry). I did a similar one in 2017, including the train from W Glacier to Essex, but I exited at St Mary. I did the Gunsight Pass section by itself in 2005 and 2020. I assume from Noname you'll do the Dawson-Pitamakan traverse beneath Flinsch Peak - one of the best segments in the park (but no water to speak of between Noname and below Pitamakan Pass). But the whole itinerary has lots of variety and eye-popping scenery. Rock formations on the way up to Triple Divide and Gunsight are particularly interesting. And good chance for moose on the way up to Isabel from UPK. Not sure what your dates are but even in mid-August 2020 there was a sketchy, sun-cupped snow section on the route up to Gunsight Pass with a hazardous runout. Only about a 40-50' stretch but probably longer earlier in the season. Hope you get some version of your itinerary.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by teapot57 »

The route I submitted is as follows:

Park Creek (PAR)
Lake Isabel (ISA)
Cobalt Lake (COB)
No Name Lake (NON)
Morning Star Lake (MOR)
Red Eagle Lake Head (REH)
Reynolds Creek (REY)
Lake Ellen Wilson (ELL)
Sperry (SPE)

I allowed for substitutions/shortening of the trip. Any thoughts on this itinerary? I hope I get it or some variation!
I really like this itinerary. What’s genius about it is that the campsites at the front end are not in high demand. So if you can at least get the first part of your itinerary through advanced reservation, it shouldn’t be that difficult to amend the middle and back half if you need to when you pick up your permit. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by zozeppelin »

Agree, awesome itinerary. I was planning on the same path last year to accommodate the east side closures.

Where I ended up was:
ISA-UPT-MOR-REF-REY-ELL

Wanted Isabel as an attractive site (a little past UPP, which struck me as the REY / MOJ style camp). Really wanted Cobalt to as well, but that leaves a big gap to Morningtar, otherwise you're backtracking to Oldman (could be worse). You're pretty much 'stuck' with REF/REH and REY as bridge points, so it's working around those.

I have never taken Amtrak, but understand reliability leaves something to be desired.

Great point about getting a permit with unpopular sites in the early section easily, then easily being able to modify the later more popular sites as they would still have walkin spots open. I've done that on purpose later in the season after the initial batch was processed knowing full well my permit request itinerary was available and I could pull a walking modification for my 5th night.

Very exiting! Please share what you end up with, we may cross paths.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by zozeppelin »

Glacier’s backcountry campground access hasn’t changed, but interest has. Mow said the backcountry permit offices and reservation system experienced three to four times the amount of requests for backpacking permits last year, and he expects to see the same or more this year.
3-4X? Seriously? I think they need to increase the non-refundable application fee at as deterrent for multiple submissions. Use that money to update the IT.

Link
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by paul »

zozeppelin wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:25 pm
Glacier’s backcountry campground access hasn’t changed, but interest has. Mow said the backcountry permit offices and reservation system experienced three to four times the amount of requests for backpacking permits last year, and he expects to see the same or more this year.
3-4X? Seriously? I think they need to increase the non-refundable application fee at as deterrent for multiple submissions. Use that money to update the IT.

Link
People are trying to game the system by submitting multiple applications when they will only use one. I'm inclined to think we should go back to the first come first served system rather than this lottery which creates incentives for this bad behavior.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by zozeppelin »

paul wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:45 pm
zozeppelin wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:25 pm
Glacier’s backcountry campground access hasn’t changed, but interest has. Mow said the backcountry permit offices and reservation system experienced three to four times the amount of requests for backpacking permits last year, and he expects to see the same or more this year.
3-4X? Seriously? I think they need to increase the non-refundable application fee at as deterrent for multiple submissions. Use that money to update the IT.

Link
People are trying to game the system by submitting multiple applications when they will only use one. I'm inclined to think we should go back to the first come first served system rather than this lottery which creates incentives for this bad behavior.
That is my speculation as well. I can understand an increase from Coronavirus effect (international travel and indoor activities mostly dead), but hard to imagine that is 3-4X. Glacier was the only national park that 'closed' last year I think. My father applied and received a Yellowstone permit no issue last year (pretty vacant he said).

My proposal wouldn't be to increase nominal cost of a typical applicant (apply for 1 permit and intend to use it), rather deter shotgun applications gaming the system by making it so costly that if they do indeed try that the park will at least be nicely compensated. This hopefully would be invested back into the backcountry. What I had in mind was a very high refundable deposit per application, refundable only upon issuance or initial permit denial. Say like $200 per application, if someone gets a permit and uses it, that is refunded once you pick up your permit the day of/before the hike. If someone wants to drop 10 applications and only arrive/use for one of them, so be it.
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Re: 2021 Backcountry Permit Applications: Date for submittal now March 17

Post by zozeppelin »

So of course I got curious and decided to see what numbers I could find. Here are the results:

2007 800 Link
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012 1300 Link
2013 1600 Link
2014
2015 2981 Link
2016
2017
2018 2640 25% more in 2019
2019 3300 Link
2020 11550 3.5X of 2019 Link
2021

I have seen mention of Glacier issuing 8000+ permits total Link, but that isn't exclusively advanced reservations. 3-4X is hard to imagine, even with shotgun applications. Hopefully the facebook or twitter account posts some numbers to satisfy the curiosity.
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