BackCountry Permits 2022

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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DawsonPass62
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BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by DawsonPass62 »

Just happened to check the Wilderness Camping (i.e. - Backcountry Camping), and there are going to be more advance campsites in 2022. Interesting, but hopefully also more enforcement of permits.


Wilderness Camping Advance Reservations
The Basics of Advance Reservations
New in 2022 - To provide more opportunities for early planning and decrease the congestion of long lines outside of permit issuing stations, we are increasing the current 50/50 split between advance reservation campsites vs. walk-in campsites to about 70/30. We strongly encourage backpackers to submit advance reservation requests to take advantage of this extra campsite availability
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by paul »

I don't think this is such a great idea. The advanced reservation system is being abused by people duplicating permit requests to increase their odds at getting a permit. What makes it worse is not everyone is cancelling permits that they don't intend to use. Even if people cancel the permits that they don't need they still screw all the people with requests in the system that were behind them in the queue, since their cancellations don't happen until permits have been processed.

I believe the walk up permits are a better approach to allow people a chance to get a permit on an equal basis.

Also If there are fewer walk-up permits people's options will be much narrower. Even people who have permits won't be able to make many changes to exchange sites they would prefer more.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by Selkie »

I think it's just a matter of time before Glacier NP moves everything to rec.gov, as North Cascades and Yellowstone did this year (along with, I assume, others). That is a big loss for YELL planning, as the backcountry rangers filling permits would fill with alternative sites and a reasonable itinerary if one's premier selection didn't work out. And you could call them up and talk to them!
Rec.gov is contracted to Booz Allen Hamilton, a big accounting and IT services company. Nobody there cares about local culture/conditions or what's best for the hiking community - or other actual users of rec.gov.
:roll:
Guess we'll see how things shake out.
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by paul »

Selkie wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:44 am I think it's just a matter of time before Glacier NP moves everything to rec.gov, as North Cascades and Yellowstone did this year (along with, I assume, others). That is a big loss for YELL planning, as the backcountry rangers filling permits would fill with alternative sites and a reasonable itinerary if one's premier selection didn't work out. And you could call them up and talk to them!
Rec.gov is contracted to Booz Allen Hamilton, a big accounting and IT services company. Nobody there cares about local culture/conditions or what's best for the hiking community - or other actual users of rec.gov.
:roll:
Guess we'll see how things shake out.
That doesn't sound very good. So there's no review process for Northern Cascades permits? People just reserve what ever is available?

I'd like to see the advanced permit system use a first come, first served process again with no two week submital time. The problem with the old system wasn't the process but the actual system wasn't capable of handling the incoming traffic. If they changed the system to properly queue people and put them in waiting rooms, I think you could go back to first come first served. It would solve the problems with duplicate requests and reduce the amount of permits that the rangers would have to process.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by teapot57 »

Word is that Glacier will be moving backcountry permitting over to recreation.gov in 2023. I agree with you, Paul. Way too many groups are submitting multiple applications and not cancelling duplicate or unneeded permits. The current system is broken and I’m hoping recreation.gov somehow improves the process.
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by Selkie »

Paul (and others),
Here is a discussion thread for North Cascades NP. The basic info is quoted in the first post:
http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8035075

YELL is doing the same:
1. Enter a lottery (March 1-20).
2. After lottery closes, based on your ranking in the lottery, you get to submit a reservation request for ONE trip. Those with high lottery numbers should expect not to get their choice.
3. After that step concludes, reservation requests are opened up to all ("General On-Sale").

For Yellowstone:
https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/ ... hiking.htm
Yellowstone is putting about 3/4 of backcountry sites into the early reservation system.

The wrinkle in YELL, at least as of last year, is that only one group may occupy a backcountry site. If that one group consists of one person, no others may camp there. I do not know whether that will change under a rec.gov regime. REI and other outfitters are offering numerous trips on high-demand routes. I would expect them to crowd out non-guided hiking groups, but don't actually know how that will play out. Maybe not ...
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by paul »

The thing about Yellowstone is that it's not really a big backcountry camping place. So operating it differently probably doesn't matter much. Yellowstone seems to be more about cars stopping on the roads and stuff like that. If you hike the trails there you usually don't see many people. I've hiked a few long days there and so more bears and Elk than people.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by paul »

teapot57 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:33 pm Word is that Glacier will be moving backcountry permitting over to recreation.gov in 2023. I agree with you, Paul. Way too many groups are submitting multiple applications and not cancelling duplicate or unneeded permits. The current system is broken and I’m hoping recreation.gov somehow improves the process.
I'm going to try and get a permit in Glacier this year. If I don't get one, it will be 5 years since my last trip to Glacier. And it's not because I haven't try to get a permit.
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by zozeppelin »

Nice catch, not to be a stickler, but isn’t it already 70/30?

1/2
2/3
2/4
3/5

To get to 3/4 we’d need 75%.

Many Glacier has always been frustrating as it is a key crossroads, yet only 2 sites reservable. This is compounded with the reality that there will always be space at the hiker/biker, but this breaks itineraries / makes permit pickup logistics a pain. I’d add to that gripe that I’d prefer not only more sites, but sites out of the front country campground, even if just outside like the staff quarters, solely to avoid hard side only restrictions due to front country visitor mistakes, which shut down a major crossroads, like they did this year.

I like the idea of increasing advanced reservations, but I think it doesn’t address the root issue of an inadequate process (throw it over the wall with a binary result, not timely). The current (nostalgic) process would be tolerable, but for what appears a rigged system (people submitting duplicate requests, inordinate amount of sites dropping off post large group and pre small group).

All that said, wouldn’t trade it for anything and it makes the experience that much sweeter once it works out.
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by cdsmith379 »

Any chatters toss an application in the ring today?
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by tibber »

cdsmith379 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:23 am Any chatters toss an application in the ring today?
yep, looking between 7-15 and 7-30 and maybe horning in on another's larger permit.

Good luck to everyone!
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by paul »

Yes, I put in a request. I widened my range to 6 weeks since I was skunked out of permits the last 4 or 5 seasons. We'll see if that helps. I'm not that hopeful though.

By the way, the web app worked like a champ at 8:30 EDT this morning.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by zozeppelin »

zozeppelin wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:53 pm Nice catch, not to be a stickler, but isn’t it already 70/30?

1/2
2/3
2/4
3/5

To get to 3/4 we’d need 75%.
So here are the updates:
2 camp sites were mixed, some stayed 2/2 (Hawksbill, Coal Creek, Ole), others 2/2 to 1/2 (Cobalt), others stayed 1/2 (Frances, Helen, Isabel, Janet, Mokowanis, McDonnald)
2/4 went to 3/4
3/6 went to 5/6

Good developments! ELF, ELL, HOL, FIF, GRN, MAN all +1.

Best of luck to everyone.
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by sbosecker »

cdsmith379 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:23 am Any chatters toss an application in the ring today?
Yes.

... and I came here today to see if anyone had gotten a reservation yet. HA!

Scott
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Re: BackCountry Permits 2022

Post by Sue Z »

I put in for a trip in early August for 6 people. Talk about improbable!

I included 3 alternatives. Also asked them to switch it to 4 people, if they can't accommodate 6. Don't know if they allow that, but if so, some of us might get to go.

On the bright side, I had a fantastic Belly River trip last fall with my son and my hubby (Swiftcurrent entrance, through the Ptarmigan Tunnel to ELF-HEL-COS, with Chief Mtn. exit), so I can't complain. Trying to take both kids and their significant others this year.
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