Wilderness Permits 2023

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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zozeppelin
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Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

The park website had eluded to a new process this year. The Daily Interlake had an article on the proposal today- here is the link to the NPS proposal.

In summary, large group permits the same (lottery) and standard groups first come first serve on REC.gov March 15th 8 AM.

They are requesting feedback - contact information in the document.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

The article states that large group size is any group larger than 4 people. If this is true, this is a huge change because it used to only include groups of 9-12 people. So this year I think there's going to be a heck of a lot more large groups applying than ever before. That is not a good change in my opinion. They are going to starve out small groups and solo hikers.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Good catch Paul- I missed that as I was more caught up in the mechanics (free for all or lottery).

If I’m reading it correctly, the medium sized group change was necessitated by the IT limitations (not sure I understand that as rec.gov can handle multiple quantity at the same time). It also appears it is a two step process, where the initial application is submitted via pay.gov as always and then rangers find itineraries as always for those limited large groups that won the lottery as always, then the rangers put the itinerary in rec.gov for checkout (approval), which is new (more on this later).

They also changed the fee structure (appears everything is upfront, including nightly per person cost, but application fee went down to $10). So this would be more of a penalty for no-shows who received a permit and a reduced deterrent for multiple applications. So if someone wanted to cheat the system with multiple applications, they could at 1/4 the cost and less completion (medium sized groups not common). Then if there are multiple hits, just don’t checkout (pay).

I’m going to collect my thoughts a bit better and provide feedback via their link.

I’ll first and foremost note this is a step in the right direction over having to wait 2 months last year and unable to book travel, which becomes increasingly more expensive or unavailable (road passes).

But, first come first served at a set day/time isn’t fair- look no further than 2018(?) and the recent road passes which sell out in minutes - oh sorry you weren’t available. Yellowstone does it right (via rec.gov)- they put you in a lottery that gives you a time/day that you can start a reservation - which is randomly assigned and spaced out enough such that you actually have time to think/plan/communicate/be available before all the openings are gone. Contrast that with Tetons, which I had first hand experience with this year- they go with what GNP is proposing (first come first serve with variable group size), and guess what- everything sold out in minutes - hopefully you were available, had a good internet connection and can click fast- what a joke.

Anyways, not trying to lead the witnesses with my gripes, but I would encourage people to review the proposal and provide feedback.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by cdsmith379 »

Not sure how I feel about this. It seems we are going back to the whoever has the fastest internet will get what they want. I was shut out last year only to see many popular routes like the North Circle open up the day before or the day of the start. Makes me think there are many no shows. Whatever system they choose I wish they would make it more beneficial to cancel in advance if you are not going to use your permit by refunding a substantial portion of the money. Not everyone believes in permit Karma and will do the right thing.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

cdsmith379 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:55 am Not sure how I feel about this. It seems we are going back to the whoever has the fastest internet will get what they want. I was shut out last year only to see many popular routes like the North Circle open up the day before or the day of the start. Makes me think there are many no shows. Whatever system they choose I wish they would make it more beneficial to cancel in advance if you are not going to use your permit by refunding a substantial portion of the money. Not everyone believes in permit Karma and will do the right thing.
I agree that if they had some mechanism to encourage people to cancel their permits if they can't use them, it would help out a lot. Maybe the answer is to make reservations refundable.

I do believe a lottery is more fair to everyone. What they need to have is a time period for people to enter the lottery and then a queued application process which allows people to enter by the order which finished in the lottery. Maybe some day we will see that.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

Hi zozeppelin,

Yes I think your the reason they lowered the large group size to 5 is because the rec.gov reservations will not accept 2 camps on one permit. However, my beef with it is you give people in these groups such an advantage in the permit process that it leaves everyone else looking for scraps on March 15th. The best dates and sites will already be taken by the large group applications. This is completely unfair in my opinion. Probably the worst change to the process.

Another bad change happened a year ago when the cut the number of walk-up permits in half in preference to advanced reservations. Walk-up permits is probably the most equitable manner to grant permits since you don't need an internet connection to get a permit and since you only need to show up to the permit office (which means you aren't going to be a no-show). I think the reductions in walk-up permits and the increase of advanced permits directly caused what we saw last season with all the no-shows happening all summer long.

I added my comments to the new process already, although I don't think it will make much of a difference. I think they have to allow for comments when they introduce new policies, it doesn't mean they will change it. Although it's nice to vent about the poor decisions the park service is making.

-Paul
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Hi Paul, that is how I read it as well.

That said, I'm not buying it! When I did the tetons earlier this year (link), you specify your group size up top and it has number of people available grid (sites by dates) where you can pick and then add to cart. Key here is, replace people with sites, and it all works. Website would show a grid of campground by dates, with quantify available, and group site size (1 or 2) being able to be specified.

That said, I agree with your concern with the 2 site limit getting first run. That certainly opens up an easy way to cheat the system, especially if people aren't aware of the changes and don't realize they need to apply on March 1 for groups of 5-8.

All that said, 'this is the way' : yellowstone (link)

They say it better than I can (emphasis mine):
Because demand for backcountry campsites in many areas of the park exceeds capacity during peak periods, an optional early access lottery is available. This lottery is based on a fair and randomized process to provide an equal opportunity for each applicant to be selected. Successful applicants are granted early access to reservations, with the earliest access having more options to secure a reservation for popular areas. Lottery participants with later access may not have access to their preferred itinerary but can create an alternate trip using available campsites.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by orin »

Maybe NPS could add a rule that unless a reservation is either cancelled or picked up the applicant would become ineligible to apply for NPS permits for the next year or two. Obviously some would not care and others might find a way around but at least it would make a point.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

To curb no-shows / non-cancelations, My solution would be a large (successful) application fee that is refunded upon picking up the permit - something similar to a rental car or hotel deposit. Where this fails is that it potentially precludes parties with financial constraints (who can and would pay for the nominal fees but wouldn’t have the budget for a large float)- hypothetical but I think it makes it a non-starter.

For multiple applications (where there is limited penalty for unsuccessful and successful reservations) somehow tie the Rec.gov account to a social security number and rate limit it. Now this fails of course because people may have legit reasons for multiple applications (as has been seen on this forum with intentional multiple trips per year at different times) as well precludes those without a social security number. Then there is the whole ‘deep state’ bit I’m not going to get into but likely would be a complaint from many. That and you could still have multiple people applying from the same party or friend/family or paid surrogate (joking). Something like SSN is needed because otherwise if it is just 1 per Rec.gov account, then one can make unlimited accounts with generated email accounts.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

Aside from people not cancelling their permits when they can't make it. My biggest beef is why should a group of 5 or more have an advantage over a group of 1,2,3 or 4? Think about it. They get first digs on all the sites and on all the dates. That's ridiculous! Before when the large group size was 9+ it wasn't too bad because it's difficult to get groups that large together for a trip. So it really wouldn't have much of an impact. And there are legitimate uses of groups of 9+ included guided trips like Glacier guides. But now, with the size requirement of just 5 people I think there will be a lot more of these groups and it's just not fair to smaller groups.

It seems like the park service is intentionally making it harder for smaller groups and solo hikers to get permits.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Paul, unfortunately I think the answer there is put in for a bunch of 5 person permits, as it only costs $10 each, in a 'if you can't beat them join them' approach. I have only ever put in 1 permit per year, but if they run with the program as laid out, I might have to rethink my 'ethics'.

One other pet peeve is the repeated statement of :
"Over the last few years, applications for advance wilderness camping permits have tripled."

It has been 3-4,000 the last 8 years, from their own data. There is the claim of '3.5 times' in 2019, but the number was never clarified.

2007 800 Link
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012 1300 Link
2013 1600 Link
2014
2015 2981 Link
2016
2017
2018 2640 25% more in 2019
2019 3300 Link
2020 11550 3.5X of 2019 Link
2021 3700 Link
2022 4000 Link
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by orin »

Paul,

The link to the NPS page above says that 30 5-8 slots and 5 9-12 slots will be available in the lottery. So while I agree with your conclusion that it is not a fair policy, the effects will be limited by the low numbers.

orin
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by teapot57 »

Another thing to consider is that a total of 30 permits for the 5-8 group could possibly be less than what had been awarded in previous years for groups of the same size. So if that is the case, while large groups are getting first choice on dates/sites, this change could actually open up more spots for smaller groups.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

orin wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:08 pm Paul,

The link to the NPS page above says that 30 5-8 slots and 5 9-12 slots will be available in the lottery. So while I agree with your conclusion that it is not a fair policy, the effects will be limited by the low numbers.

orin
Thanks Orin, I missed that part when I read the document. That makes a big difference. I agree it probably won't have too much of an impact if it's only 35 total permits.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

teapot57 wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:32 am Another thing to consider is that a total of 30 permits for the 5-8 group could possibly be less than what had been awarded in previous years for groups of the same size. So if that is the case, while large groups are getting first choice on dates/sites, this change could actually open up more spots for smaller groups.
Agree, I didn't notice the limitation on the lottery size. That's good news. I wonder if with link was updated since it was first posted to clarify the number of permits being offered early.
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