2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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danwadas55
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by danwadas55 »

Received my permit today. 1st choice with all of my preferred sites in my preferred direction. For those of you still waiting, I was a 10:08 timestamp and kicked out multiple times. I had the following dates open and listed in the comments section that they were in order of most preferred to least: Aug 14-23, Aug 1 - Aug 8, Aug 28 - Sept 14, July 22-31. I had four inteniraries listed and indicated I would accept alternate campsites or reverse the order of my trip. So moral of the story, we were as flexible as could be.

ENTER - CHIEF MOUNTAIN (TRAILHEAD)

9-2-2018 - COS - COSLEY LAKE
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 8.30
Elevation; Up 257 | Down 744

9-3-2018 - MOL - MOKOWANIS LK
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 6.20
Elevation; Up 138 | Down 0

9-4-2018 - STO - STONEY
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 6.80
Elevation; Up 2410 | Down 1080

EXIT - GOAT HAUNT RANGER STATION (TRAILHEAD)
Segment; Length 7.50
Elevation; Up 0 | Down 2125


TOTALS;
Trip length 28.80 miles
Elevation up 2,805 feet
Elevation down 3,949 feet

I feel extremely lucky that they gave me anything at all. Now I just gotta pray there aren’t as many fires as last year. We weee there the same exact week last summer and it was good some days and zero visibility on others. Anyway, for those of you still waiting there’s still hope. Good luck!
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by sbosecker »

I had all but given up hope...

This morning at 10:32 am Eastern Time I received my second choice itinerary with the start time moving from my desired August 13th start to an August 17th start.

My first choice of Chief Mountain to Goat Haunt was toast (during my time frame) some time ago so I was pretty tickled (Stockholm Syndrome) to get choice #2.

There is nothing on my permit indicating what the Glacier folks used for a time stamp. My Pay.gov time stamp, after getting thrown under the bus several times by the web site, was 10:17:28

8-17-2018 - NON - NO NAME LK
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 5.80
Elevation; Up 760 | Down 0

8-18-2018 - OLD - OLDMAN LAKE
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 7.50
Elevation; Up 2175 | Down 1454

8-19-2018 - ATL - ATLANTIC CREEK
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 8.60
Elevation; Up 1080 | Down 2277

8-20-2018 - ATL - ATLANTIC CREEK
Fires; NO
Segment; Length 0.00
Elevation; Up 0 | Down 0

EXIT - CUT BANK CREEK (TRAILHEAD)
Segment; Length 4.30
Elevation; Up 0 | Down 380


TOTALS;
Trip length 26.20 miles
Elevation up 4,015 feet
Elevation down 4,111 feet

The idea of the two nights at Atlantic Creek is to spend the day in between hiking up to Triple Divide Pass and back.

I've been over all of these trails before. It's been 15 years since I've hiked between NON & OLD - that was in 2003 and was my first Glacier Backpack. My hiking partner was my 13 year old son.

In 2011 my son & I did OLD, ATL, REF. I'll be doing this trip with a college buddy - we've been taking trips like this since 2002.

Scott
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by thorn726 »

hooray on getting something!! but "There is nothing on my permit indicating what the Glacier folks used for a time stamp. " brings up an interesting point, it sure would have been nice if they would have shown the people who got kicked out what their "new" timestamp was when they re ordered.
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by tibber »

I found this while dinging around on the Park Reservation website:
Advance Reservation Update - 3/22/18
Pay.gov completed their investigation of the website crash on Monday and has provided the Park with a list of affected users based on their analysis of user account submission attempts taken from website log entries. Backcountry staff merged that list with actual submissions data collected on March 15 and rearranged it by time stamp. This new list is being used to process advance reservations.

Due to the delays associated with the Pay.gov system failure and the extremely high number of applications received, backcountry staff cannot provide individual applicants with the status of their applications. Successful applicants will receive an email with either a backcountry permit itinerary or a rejection notice once their application is processed.

We are sorry for any distress this may have caused and appreciate your patience as we begin the real work of processing advance reservation applications
So that's what they're saying anyway.
sbosecker wrote:I had all but given up hope...

This morning at 10:32 am Eastern Time I received my second choice itinerary with the start time moving from my desired August 13th start to an August 17th start.
There is nothing on my permit indicating what the Glacier folks used for a time stamp. My Pay.gov time stamp, after getting thrown under the bus several times by the web site, was 10:17:28

I've been over all of these trails before. It's been 15 years since I've hiked between NON & OLD - that was in 2003 and was my first Glacier Backpack. My hiking partner was my 13 year old son.
In 2011 my son & I did OLD, ATL, REF. I'll be doing this trip with a college buddy - we've been taking trips like this since 2002.

Scott
sounds like a great trip and down memory lane! Enjoy.
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by sbosecker »

thorn726 wrote:hooray on getting something!! but "There is nothing on my permit indicating what the Glacier folks used for a time stamp. " brings up an interesting point, it sure would have been nice if they would have shown the people who got kicked out what their "new" timestamp was when they re ordered.
Thanks for the good wishes regarding my trip!

With all due respect. Regarding "transparency"... what would that accomplish? While I'm not happy with how this went down and I am curious where I was in queue, I understand.

You can't belly-ache (in detail anyway) about a process you cannot see. They decided to play the hand they were dealt but not show any cards. Once the March 15th grumbling died down there was no good reason to cause the howling to begin again each time someone shared their "time stamp" on social media.

This was a cluster from the get-go. Once they decided to push forward rather than fixing the computer problem and starting over at a later date, the process that would cause the least amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth was to muscle ahead inside a cone of silence.

Scott
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by cdsmith379 »

As others have said the whole system of "first come first serve" doesn't work given the evident technical limitations of the system. I intend to make this very clear in the most respectful way when I am out there this year. After all, the government is supposed to work for us. Yosemite has it perfected. A daily rolling lottery with a daily email notice.
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by sbosecker »

cdsmith379 wrote:As others have said the whole system of "first come first serve" doesn't work given the evident technical limitations of the system. I intend to make this very clear in the most respectful way when I am out there this year. After all, the government is supposed to work for us. Yosemite has it perfected. A daily rolling lottery with a daily email notice.
I believe reasonable men can disagree on what is perfect but please elaborate a bit on Yosemite's system. If I remember correctly The Grand Canyon used to have (it has been a few years so I don't know if it still works this way) a system where ALL the backcountry sites for a particular month came up for grabs 4(?) months prior to that month's dates. I always thought this was unfair since there was no allowance to hold back any sites for walk-ups.

I have no problem using Pay.gov as a way to load the form, submit the form and pay. I like the concept of splitting available backcountry sites into roughly half for advance reservations and half held back for walk-up backpackers.

The current methodology of "a race" to submit a request starting at a particular time just seems weird even if Pay.gov's one-lunged server could handle the load. You mean getting a permit is going to favor someone having an atomic-clock hooked up to their computer and automatically sending the request a nano-second after 8:00 am Mountain Time?

And what's up with 8:00 am Mountain Time? This certainly puts most employed people in the Eastern Time Zone at a disadvantage. Employed Pacific Time folks probably have a bit of an advantage with the current system. There's a reason major sporting events are televised around 9:00 pm Eastern Time ...but any random time is going to put some applicants at a disadvantage and favor others.

I do think they old way of having a multi-week window to submit requests followed by a lottery for the available sites is the best system I can think of to handle doling out this limited resource.

Best regards,

Scott
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by PeteE »

The GNP BC Office had a perfectly good "lottery" system prior to the current highly unfair first come/first serve---which served nobody.

True it was a slow "maunal" system.
All they need to do is "computerize" the prior system. Do whatever needs to be done to make it as automated as possible for efficiency.
BUT!!!!
Preserve the core of the system which was a random draw of applicant' applications.
Allow, for argument's sake, 1 week for applications to be emailed in beginning January 1 each year.
Allow a week to weed out all those improperly filled out, credit card check, etc.
Once all the "good" applications are compiled, say 2000 of them.
They get assigned a number from 1-2000 in some random fashion---lots of ways would satisfy the "transparency" issue---imo.
I do trust those in the BC Office to carry that process out fairly.
Once the apps have a number, sort them in number order and begin processing and emailing the results.

I have to believe that over the off season, the "program" would get new algos to handle some of the drudge work data entry.
Initially, the rangers will still have to key in some data, but over time, a lot could be automated---I would think?
Seems to me results could be going out by March 15th at the latest once it gets going.

I don't see why(other than "it's the government") 8) a system like this couldn't be up and running next year.

How does the lottery system at Yosemite work for those who need to make plans 6 months out?
Plane tickets, motel reservations, etc.


pete :wink:
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by cdsmith379 »

sbosecker wrote:
cdsmith379 wrote:As others have said the whole system of "first come first serve" doesn't work given the evident technical limitations of the system. I intend to make this very clear in the most respectful way when I am out there this year. After all, the government is supposed to work for us. Yosemite has it perfected. A daily rolling lottery with a daily email notice.
I believe reasonable men can disagree on what is perfect but please elaborate a bit on Yosemite's system. If I remember correctly The Grand Canyon used to have (it has been a few years so I don't know if it still works this way) a system where ALL the backcountry sites for a particular month came up for grabs 4(?) months prior to that month's dates. I always thought this was unfair since there was no allowance to hold back any sites for walk-ups.

I have no problem using Pay.gov as a way to load the form, submit the form and pay. I like the concept of splitting available backcountry sites into roughly half for advance reservations and half held back for walk-up backpackers.

The current methodology of "a race" to submit a request starting at a particular time just seems weird even if Pay.gov's one-lunged server could handle the load. You mean getting a permit is going to favor someone having an atomic-clock hooked up to their computer and automatically sending the request a nano-second after 8:00 am Mountain Time?

And what's up with 8:00 am Mountain Time? This certainly puts most employed people in the Eastern Time Zone at a disadvantage. Employed Pacific Time folks probably have a bit of an advantage with the current system. There's a reason major sporting events are televised around 9:00 pm Eastern Time ...but any random time is going to put some applicants at a disadvantage and favor others.

I do think they old way of having a multi-week window to submit requests followed by a lottery for the available sites is the best system I can think of to handle doling out this limited resource.

Best regards,

Scott
"Perfected" is a certainly a subjective term and I may have reached using that for a major National Park, my apologies for that. I would like to explain my Yosemite permit experience compared to my Glacier experience. Yosemite has a fixed amount of trailheads, offering a fixed entry quota. The application consisted of your proposed itinerary along with preferred entry trailhead and backups, along with preferred date range, and you would submit your request 6 months before your intended starting hike date, which would roll on from day to day.

Glacier offers a similar reservation experience, a fixed trailhead, fixed sites, desired entry dates with alternatives, but not at a fixed 6 month advanced date.

Yosemite, on the other hand, compiles the information, and generates permits based on an acceptable amount of entry visitors given the expected backcounty usage. Every day, I received an email on the status of my request. Glacier is a bit different, because it does not use dispersed backcountry camping, site occupancies are fixed, but they are well known as well as opening dates. This really isnt a problem for any database program to track.

Glacier could provide near immediate feedback on available sites, dates, etc. Yosemite sends an email every day regarding your permit status. I am kind of annoyed with the change because Glacier did have an effective fax lottery system for many years. Now we have this system.

I don't know, I just don't buy the excuse of the system being overwhelmed. Glacier is a world class destination and it clearly needs a better Backcountry Camping reservation system.
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by thorn726 »

"With all due respect. Regarding "transparency"... what would that accomplish? "
i do have to laugh at myself a little and admit, it would accomplish nothing.. i'm a numbers nerd, just wishing purely out of curiosity to hear people say "the Park corrected my timestamp from 10:08 to 10:01" or whatever... //i'm one of those nerds who will pore over useless data. I spent an hour looking at the Whitney permit results charts, they really go to town with all the different dates and results numbers..
PAY.GOV- i honestly like Glacier's current system especially because you can fill it all out online, and it is very well thought out with alternative dates etc. The only problem is obviously "first come first serve" is not good. Some sort of application period and then process apps by lottery would be great...
If Glacier goes to a lottery, the LoTTery Application Periods and Results are an issue that may be decided by the Park, but i would love it if the public had input... the "wait and see" issue is a tough one... Seems like there is no easy way around some people finding out while others keep waiting. Alternative would be for Park to hold All applications until a certain date and then release all permits at once... not sure everyone wants to wait like that... When i describe how Yosemite does it you will understand better why their system would not work for Glacier... i'll put that last with a notation if you want to skip ahead.
re:Permits Permits Permits... i've gotten them in several places and have done the research in others.
In Short- no, wait, that's impossible... this will run on... I spend so much time reading the permit pages, i can't help myself...
first off there are Two different things going on in the Grand Canyon- Phantom Ranch at the bottom which has a wacky lottery system for everything way in advance, and then the permits for the Park BC sites and trails... To confuse things further, they have some BC "campgrounds" and some trails that are "camp anywhere you like" areas :!: (this typically means try to find a site that has been previously used, or go 100yds from trail, there are a few variables but essentially find whatever spot looks good)...
SO- while Phantom Ranch (private within the Park) is reserved all at once way in advance with a lottery, the rest of the Wilderness Permit areas in GC are a ratio of reserved and walk up.. i can not say for certain why (i believe it is related to the Wilderness Act) but so far every National Park and National Forest backpacking permit i have checked into has 60% permits are reservable, 40% are walk up EXCEPT Mt Whitney permits which are given out in their own special lottery (unclaimed/cancelled dates become available for walk ups, but they are fairly few).
Where Grand Canyon burned people was their 3 weeks out rule.. (good news on that below)
like PeteE says..
what do people do when they try to plan months in advance??
I literally am those people this summer...we are totally burned, it sucks. We didn't even consider backcountry, just went with Rim campground reservations. from what i understand getting a walk up is not too tough although hard for the best areas, but most of us need to plan big trips like this months in advance and you cant get plane and sleeping reservations that close in high season... 3 weeks in advance is a burn.
After all that i look it up and they have switched to an "earliest consideration" system similar to yosemite, it now is 4 months in advance, they have certain windows to apply during for certain trip dates... it functions similar to Yosemite, which will be better explained in a bit...
Canyonlands had a system similar to Grand Canyon that was not far in advance as well, now is 4 months in advance..seems like everyone is changing their system. They do also have the 60/40 reserved/walk up as well... looks like enough people complained that the "3 weeks in advance" was ludicrous, so hard to make plans like that.
The biggest problem i have had almost everywhere including Glacier- we had to reserve campsites at fish creek in january for before and after our BC trip and then hope and pray we got BC permits for the 2 nights we did not have a site reserved (got lucky hooray)...
There are some Forest areas with no lottery where both front country campsites and the back country permits are available at the same time but not many. Seems most campsites are 6 months in advance, so by the time you have a permit, the front country sites are all gone. I don't expect the Parks to change that, it is not likely they would overhaul the entire system for backpackers but...I had mentioned earlier, one solution in Yosemite where So Many people are backpacking, they set up "backpacker campgrounds" dirt lots inside larger campgrounds where persons with permits can spend 1 night before and after a trip for $5 per. Would be nice to see that in more Parks, but not all have the space for it.
YOSEMITE -background because theirs is probably the busiest system, it does make for an interesting one... first off you get a permit for a trailhead rather than a campsite and other than a very few areas you camp "anywhere you like" (see :!: above). Trailheads have entry quotas, most are 40 entries per day, so 25 reservations and 15 walk ups.. What gets interesting is your permit can be for any number of days (not sure what the limit is) in the woods on your permit .. so if many people enter same trailhead day after day an area can get crowded, but for the most part, people keep moving so that is not an issue... But you can see how that would not work in Glacier...
60% of daily quota is reservable in advance, 40% for walk ups. You can get a walk up only 24hrs or less before your trip. As mentioned, if you need a campsite you can use the "backpackers campgrounds" of which there are a few scattered across the park, some closer to trailheads than others.. You can park near a trailhead, and Yosemite has very few restrictions on parking (some are being implemented in the crowded areas).. you can leave your car on Tioga Road for a month with no worries. I'll throw in Yosemite has reserved and walk in front country campgrounds. The reservations are recreation.gov, first come first serve online 6 months in advance gone in under a minute every day for high season!! Recreation.gov seems to have pretty good servers as their systems are handling thousands and thousands of campsite reservations daily this time of year, but it's gotten so crowded that i really hope they consider daily lotteries as well.. when "first come" is determined by servers competing for bandwidth, all fairness goes out the window.
:?: Yosemite Lottery (Grand Canyon very similar)
FAX. Grand Canyon also does FAX. Many of these lotteries operate in the same fashion.. get a pdf online similar to Glacier's, but you have to print it out and FAX it in, no email.. big pain in the neck, but you do have a full day to do it in...for Yosemite they go with 168 days in advance- so there is a period of 24 hrs 169 days in advance where you submit the application. They say "submit this day we process following day". 168 days in advance they randomly pull the applications received day before until they have gone through all of them, and you hear back day after processing. If none of your choices are available, you get nothing, they will not pick for you like Glacier will. More CATCHes that makes this particular system not work for Glacier- for one, staffing may be an issue, yosemite has a lot of staff... and for another...dates.. You are only able to apply for a certain date.. you can list alternative trailheads, but they will only process permits for the 168 days or less in advance they are at each day...by limiting applications to only a specific date, they have only so many to go through each day... Now if you are at less than 169 days out you can check their "full trailheads" page and see what dates are still open and apply for them, but the popular trailheads are full. Again, all of this works well because people are competing for trailhead entries, and can then make their own campsite where ever, while in Glacier we all need to use the same campsites.
Glacier saves a lot of reprocessing time by moving dates around for you, which is ultimately better for them than it is for you.. In Yosemite if you don't get a permit today, you try again tmrw or whatever day works for you until you get one... Example, last year that meant i submitted apps three times until i got the trip i wanted... so the Rangers had to process me three times instead of once, a lot more work when you consider the numbers. It also works out that Glacier is reserving for between 3 and 6 months in advance to cope with their seasonal fluctuations. All these date complications make the 6 months in advance hear back in a day or two system tough to apply to Glacier// ultimately i see the current system as about as good as it gets, just change it to a week or two application period and process by a lottery system.
The really nice thing is there is always Something available for walk up.. ive been pretty impressed with what was still available on the walk up board when i go to pick up my permits, and a walk up trip to a "less popular" area was one of our favorites... I suspect this applies Everywhere.
You can also usually call the Rangers at most Parks and Forests to arrange a permit reservation, but only for what is left after they process lotteries each day. This is a very shaky way to get a permit, but for certain less popular areas it works.
Mt. Whitney lottery is for hikes during may-oct...they have us fill out online, we have one month window to apply around feb 15-march 15. It is only one trail, select day hike or overnight, apply for i think it is 10 maybe more alternatives. Increase your chances by applying for both day (100 per day) and overnight (60 per day) hikes for same dates, apply for weekdays, etc... 5 weeks after application window closes they inform everyone at once, in April well before hiking season starts (may-oct), but most of the the front country sites have already been reserved depending on when your climb is..frustrating, especially since you need to stay at the the mtn to acclimate , but there are some walk up sites and other alternatives. After lottery results are released, Unclaimed dates go on sale, lottery winners have another month to confirm and pay for their permits. After that period is over the rest of the leftovers go on sale .... not a bad system but when you only have one trail with "camp anywhere you like" it is easy...
Possibly some combination of those two lotteries would work well for Glacier..
If you got this far, you would probably enjoy looking over the backcountry permit sections of National Park websites, every Park is a little different and even within the Parks there are areas with different complications. Some Parks it is as simple as parking your car and leaving a note on it.....
Well that was way too much.. hope someone finds parts of it interesting... this is what happens when you study parks for years, and have a job that has you on call waiting in case someone needs you... /// write essays on the internet all night...
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by AndyfromMaui »

Trying to be patient but running into something a bit off. My girlfriend and I each submitted for permits. My time stamp was 1101 hers was 1108. We were both charged. Her permit (1st choice) was issued last Friday. I’ve heard nothing about mine. We both had an extremely difficult time trying to log in and submit our info on the first day. That’s why we had such a late time stamp. I was under the impression they went in order received but with all the issues on the first day, I’m guessing that got mixed up a bit. How long do I wait before trying to contact someone? Have permit requests ever been “lost”?

Thanks in advance,

Andy
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by danwadas55 »

Received the following response today to my letter sent directly to the Superintendent and Deputy Superintendent back in March regarding the reservation system. I found their emails online. My original letter is below. Even though I ended up getting my first choice itinerary, it doesn't change any of my feelings on the matter. Definitely a flawed system that needs improvement.


"Just to follow up on your email sent directly to the Superintendent and Deputy. Your email was also shared with our Backcountry Supervisors and staff. Thank you for your comments and suggestions concerning our current Backcountry Reservation System. As you know the current system is the early stages of development in which our Backcountry managers and supervisors are working to find ways to make this process more user friendly.

Once again thank you for your input.

Connie Stahr
Executive Assistant
Office of the Superintendent
Glacier National Park
P.O. Box 128
West Glacier, MT 59936"


"Superintendent Mow and Deputy Sup. Smith,

Good morning and thank you for taking the time to read my message. First, I wanted to personally thank you both for doing a great job managing Glacier. I have been to and spent considerable time in many of the nation's parks, but my first visit to Glacier in Sept 2017 was a highlight even through all the smoke. The Backcountry Staff did an excellent job helping us plan a few nights out in the backcountry. They did so well and the scenery was so excellent that we've been planning ever since Sept to return this summer for a longer backpacking trip.

However, I am writing to you to express my concerns over the current Backcountry Reservation System which I and others agree is deeply flawed. As you may be aware, the reservation process this year has been quite a hassle for users and probably even more so for your permitting rangers. The first-come-first-serve nature of the current system is well-intended, but even without the serious shortcomings of Pay.gov, the current system makes a number of assumptions. For one, it assumes applicants have reliable internet access to which not everyone has equal access due to geographical or economic factors. Secondly, it assumes that at 10:00:00 AM on March 15th the first person to click Submit and successfully get a timestamp of 10:00:01 is the most deserving of a coveted permit because they were first, thus first served. As this year's crash perfectly illustrates, hundreds if not thousands of people were waiting and ready at 10:00:00, so many that they overloaded the servers at Pay.gov. Even with disregarding the crash (I know the Backcountry staff has been working on a quasi-fix with the information they've received from Pay.gov), is this system truly first-come-first serve? Or does it skew the results to those fortunate enough to have slightly faster internet access, not to mention working people who may not be able to take 5 minutes on a Thursday at 10:00:00 to apply for use of public lands?

My point being, I and others hope you will consider looking into a fair, reliable lottery system for these applications. We all understand that visitor numbers continue to skyrocket at Glacier and not everyone gets the permit they want or a permit at all. That fact we can accept and understand in order to keep a minimal impact on Glacier's fragile beauty. However, it is the right of every citizen who wishes to enjoy that beauty to have a fair chance at that experience. For instance, something as simple as changing the open application period to a few days to a week and then randomly drawing applications from those received during that period would level the playing field for everyone. A working dad could apply for a trip with his kids after work at 5:00 pm on March 17th or on a weekend and have just as good a chance at receiving the trip of a lifetime as someone waiting to snipe-click at 10:00:00 am. Somebody who lives off in the country with no internet access could drive to a local library on a weekend and submit their application also. In addition, this prevents overloading the servers since there would no longer be a need for 1500 applications to arrive in 60 seconds to Pay.gov.

I'd once again like to reiterate how great the Glacier Staff has been throughout this process. They quickly admitted there was a problem with the system and clearly are doing whatever they can to make the best of a bad situation. I would like to personally commend Teagan Tomlin the Vistors Services Assistant for her timely and cordial responses to my and other applicants' questions and concerns during the entire process as well as the entire Backcountry Office Staff for their continued efforts to issue permits in the most fair way with the given circumstances. Please consider a fix to the system that will benefit both your staff and the people your staff serve to help enjoy our nation's most valuable treasure."

Dan
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by PeteE »

...As you know the current system is the early stages of development in which our Backcountry managers and supervisors are working to find ways to make this process more user friendly.
Nice letter you wrote Dan.

However, frankly, I find the "response" you got, partially quoted above to be woefully lacking.
Make the process "more user friendly"? Really?
That statement is rather patronizing imo.
A "pat on the head", a stonewalling/stall of an answer.

pete :wink:
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And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

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Sue Z
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by Sue Z »

danwadas55 wrote: As you know the current system is the early stages of development in which our Backcountry managers and supervisors are working to find ways to make this process more user friendly.

Once again thank you for your input.

Connie Stahr
Executive Assistant
Office of the Superintendent
Glacier National Park
P.O. Box 128
West Glacier, MT 59936"
Wow. Your extremely well delineated concerns were blown off in this perfunctory reply. Insulting, really. Nothing in that reply says "I hear you," or "I give a damn."

Also, it sounds like she has no actual knowledge of the system, nor any desire to become informed. The system is not in the early stages of development - it's been up and running for two years, with decades of experience with the previous lottery system to back it up.

Thanks for trying, Dan. Your letter expressed the egregious problem and the preferred solution perfectly.
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Re: 2018 Backcountry Permit Buzz

Post by paul »

It looks like the response is coming from an executive assistant not from the Superintendent. My guess is the assistant handles these messages and the superintendent doesn't even see them. The assistant most likely doesn't know anything about the backcountry permitting system.
We are in the mountains and the mountains are in us. - John Muir
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